I guess he doesn’t realize that his denomination was started by, “men who think they are so intelligent they can figure out what God knows, when he knows it, and what He would do with that information. They then squeeze an amazing, loving, patient and caring God into their tiny human minds and spit out this abhorrent thing called Calvinism.” Sad, just sad.

This sounds like a typical accusation. Uninformed people do represent Calvinism as something wretched.

Well, it sure is strange to deny that this appraisal of Calvinism is not true. I sat under Calvinist teaching at a Southern Baptist church also, and this is certainly what is being taught: That God chooses some to save and others to damn, completely apart from individual free choice. We had a video series on it, as well as discussion, and all of it included quotes from Calvin.
If you do not believe this is what Calvin taught and what Calvinists now are teaching, you may want to better inform yourselves through more study.
Rachel

Rachel,

Nothing you said matches anything said by the man I quoted. God is sovereign in election – which means the final factor determining who will and will not receive salvation is God, not man – but the letter above never even mentioned that issue. All of the points the man mentioned are points that do not exist in Calvinism.

At the end of the day the question is, “What saith the Scriptures?” What Scriptures teach, we are to teach. Calvinists are not Calvinists because of love of any particular theological teaching or any particular teacher but because we believe the Bible teaches certain things about sin, salvation, and the Savior.

Chris, You say we are to teach what the Scriptures teach. I agree. So please tell me how you would teach 1 Tim. 2:3,4, “…God our Savior, who wants ALL men to be saved…” or 1 John 2:2, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” Or Jesus in John 12:32, “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” Or 2 Cor. 5:15, “He died for all…” or 2 Peter 3:9, “He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish…” You know that I could go on.
Also, I do wonder how you would teach the numerous passages that tell US to CHOOSE God, the right way, etc.
Do you deny that Calvinism teaches that God created some people to be saved, while He created others to be damned, aside from any choice on the human’s part?

Rachel,

I would teach what they say. God desires that all be saved, that all reach repentance, that no one should perish. But I would also note passages like Romans 9:19-24 where we read of some vessels created for glory, others for destruction or John 6:44 that no one can come to the Father unless the Son draws him, and all those drawn by the Son will be raised with Christ – this would be universalism if we believed the Son draws everyone. Or quite a chunk of Ephesians chapters 1-3, particularly Eph 1:4-6, 11-12, 2:1-10, etc, etc. And here too the list of Scripture could go on and on.

One has to either decide the Scriptures contradict themselves or one has to deal faithfully with all of this. How is it that some passages seem to indicate God’s desire for all to be saved while others indicate that God chooses who will be saved, and he does not choose everyone, and it is based on God’s will, not man’s choice?

The answer is found in passages like Isaiah 43:25 where God says he forgives our sins not for our sake but for his sake, and Isaiah 48:9-11 where we see God motivated by the desire to proclaim his glory. This is also what Paul indicates in Romans 9. God’s greatest desire is not for human salvation but for his own glory. On one level God wants all men to be saved. On a greater level God desires that his glory shine brightly throughout all creation.

For more on this, see John Piper’s article http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/articles/bydate/1995/1580_are_there_two_wills_in_god/ he will give you a substantial amount of Scripture to demonstrate the claim.

As for the passages that tell us to choose, there again I would say what they say – you ARE to choose Christ. But because we are such sinners, we would never receive Christ on our own. If we were left to ourselves, if salvation were a matter of our own free will, no one would be saved. This is Paul’s point in Ephesians 2:1-10, this is why it is such a powerful passage. In Eph 2:1-3 we see what foul sinners fallen men are and that there is nothing in us seeking good. That point is also drawn out in Romans 3:10-18 – no one, as in not a single person, would ever choose God on their own. No one seeks God. No one desires God. Left to ourselves we would all perish. Salvation can only come when God first does a work in the life of the sinner, opening his eyes to the glory of the gospel and enabling him to respond. The glory of grace is so compelling to the one who has been thus regenerated that the individual will respond with joy and repentance. Those chosen by Christ will be saved. Otherwise, no one would be saved.

One final comment. No one is in Hell because God made them go there. Each person in Hell is there because of his own sinful rebellion against God. That God did not choose to save them does not minimize their guilt. They are in Hell because they are sinners and they refused to submit to the just commands of God or even to receive the free grace of Christ.

Chris,
As do other Calvinists, you contradict yourself. “No one is in Hell because God made them go there.” Yet you say we CAN’T choose to turn toward repentance without His help. Yes, many rebel (Rom. 1:18,21,28), but why can Calvinists not understand that He has ALREADY helped ALL, enabled ALL, –given ALL the gift of choice?
Ah, “the thoughts of the ‘wise’ which are so futile” (1 Cor. 3:20), “foolish hearts becoming ever more darkened” (Rom. 1:21), “blinded minds” (2 Cor. 4:4), the man without the Spirit unable to understand. (1 Cor. 2:14)
Chris, I didn’t need a lesson in Calvinism. I’ve already studied it in depth. Like the others, you did not answer me how you would teach those exact verses I mentioned.
As Calvinists do, they point me to a MAN’S lessons about the Bible. Don’t worry. I’ve read Piper too.

Rachel,

I am sorry you did not consider my explanation of those passages adequate, but please do not pretend I did not give a response to them.

Simple question. Where does the Bible teach that God has given each person the moral ability to choose him? Scripture teaches that people lack any moral ability or desire to turn to God, that being dead in their sins, no one desires God. But where does it say that God has so worked in the hearts of all humanity that everyone is semi-revived, semi-undead, capable of desiring God without any greater work of God in their lives?

Yes, Scripture issues a call for all people to repent, to follow Christ, to receive salvation, etc. But a call to make a choice is not the same thing as enabling someone to make that choice. So this is what we must deal with. Scripture calls on people to repent and turn to God but Scripture also teaches that because of our sin, because we are dead in sin, no one will choose God. How then can any be saved? Thanks be to God in Jesus Christ our Lord, those who are saved, he has brought to salvation.

Chris, Since I was about to say, “Aw, forget it; we’re not communicating here,” I decided to check out who you are. Ah, your family is absolutely adorable!!!
So… you all look too sweet to annoy, which wasn’t my intention anyway. :) I was merely hoping that just maybe there could be a Calvinist that would change his mind. Oh, well. The frustrating and sad debates continue…
Truly, Chris, with the hundreds I’ve ever had spiritual discussions with, I find Calvinists the most unenjoyable, with JWs being a close second. I mean there seems to be so much denial and unreasonableness. I’m not trying to be rude; this is just the case, Chris! C’mon. If you are a pastor with degrees, can’t you see how you are talking in circles? Above, (last night), you say, “God desires that all be saved…” But you know that Calvinists believe that since God is absolutely sovereign, then whatever He desires, He will make come to pass.
And no, I’m not pretending that you didn’t answer my question. You didn’t. With your question to me, I will for now stick with Jesus’ example in Matt.21:27. So let me try again: How would you answer a person who says, “1 Tim. 2:6 tells me that Christ ‘gave Himself as a ransom for all men.’ And so if He did this for ALL, why do Calvinists say that God purposefully withholds the ability for many people to repent and accept this ransom? Are you saying that it is for the purpose that God gets pleasure out of sending people to Hell –Hell where there is no hope, only eternal anguish? Are you saying that God commands something (repentance), but withholds any ability for that ‘unelect’ one to obey that command?”
Chris, how can you, a preacher of God’s love, believe this stuff?! No, I’m certainly not a universalist, for I did not say that all will be saved. I said that Christ died for ALL, and ALL are extended The Choice: Repent and Believe the Good News or Reject This Good News. (Mark 1:15 & John 3:18,36)

Rachel,

As far as changing minds, I’m evidence that change can go both ways. I started out as a Calvinist in the Presbyterian church. Became a Southern Baptist and eventually ditched Calvinism. Argued vehemently against Calvinism for several years until finally I understood that Calvinist theology is nothing less than biblical theology so here I am back in the Calvinist camp.

You say you want to find a Calvinist who will change his mind, well there you go, I’ve changed my mind twice. Away from Calvinism, then back again. Now I’d like to find more non-Calvinists who will change their minds!

I believe there is some misunderstanding in this discussion. I believe I have already addressed every point you have raised. To briefly rehash. God desires that all men be saved but this is not the only thing God desires. His greater desire is for his own glory. A brief example could be given with my children. I want my children to be happy. But even more than I want them to be happy, I want them to be well behaved. To that end I will spank my children when they disobey, disrupting their happiness. My desire that my children be happy is not my only – or highest – desire for my children. There are two wills in this parent, just as there are two wills in God. So God desires the salvation of everyone and he could in fact ensure the salvation of everyone but his greater desire is the display of his glory so for reasons explained in Romans 9, God does not save everyone.

Keep in mind that men do not go to Hell because God chose to send them there. Men go to Hell because they die of sins they willfully committed, refusing to submit to Christ. It is the sin of man that causes spiritual death. It is the sin of man that causes us to be unable and unwilling to choose God. We create our own hardness. We commit spiritual suicide through sin. God is not the author of our wrongdoing. But because of our sin, we are fallen, stained, corrupted, unable to choose God. God is under no obligation to save anyone. It is amazing grace that he chooses to save some. Those who criticize Calvinism ask the wrong question. The question is not, “Why does God save only these?” the question is, “Why does God save anyone?”

God does not “purposefully withhold… the ability for many people to repent and accept this ransom” – that is backwards. What God withholds is regeneration. We kill ourselves by our sin, as we have been doing ever since Adam and Eve. God did not make us dead in our sins, we made ourselves dead in our sins. What God has done is give life and salvation to some.

Chris,
Well, I should’ve known… the fact that you’ve switched –against Calvinism, then back to it — means that there’s hope for you yet. :) This, and also because I only later realized you are a pastor, am I hanging in with this dialogue. Because, like I said, Calvinists are usually completely hardened to listening; or even attempting to consider that they could be very wrong. Have you ever tried to reason with a JW? I’m sure you have. They will not listen whatsoever, but love to “enlighten” the rest of us. It takes a true miracle to get them out of their brainwashed mindset. Even the atheists are not as obstinate and unreasonable as they –and Calvinists.

Chris, you are a pastor. That is a heavy-duty responsibility before the Lord of Hosts. You must get your doctrine right. (1 Tim. 4:16) We all must, but especially those who teach, “who will be judged more strictly.” (James 3:1) This is no light matter; and I’m sure you agree.

You speak of your children. Yes, you want them well-behaved, (therein finding happiness for all a higher probability), but also because that’s the road to please and honor God. However, I know very well that you would do all you could to keep your children from going to Hell. How awful to think that you, because you wanted to uphold glory for yourself, the 5th Commandment, or even God, would decide to purposefully withhold repentance from two of them, while granting the other one the ability to repent, that one thus going to live with you forever, the other two sent to eternal flames because of YOUR choice to withhold the “drawing” unto repentance.

You follow Calvin. So let’s consider if he could have possibly had the right spirit –the Holy Spirit of our loving God– in him. Let’s say you saw a man in his back yard tie his cat to a stick and pull it back and forth through a fire. Then let’s say the man invited you to his home Bible Study, telling you he was so adept at “correctly handling the Word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15) that they would also be using some theology manuscripts that he himself had written. I need not even ask you if you would give the guy the time of day to listen to. And to think that Michael Servetus was not the only one who Calvin ordered to have killed, tortured, or exiled. Did Jesus or the apostles ever promote such? Would a teacher of God’s doctrine, one “conformed to the likeness of His Son” (Rom. 8:29) ever force someone to submit to their interpretations under threat of such? It just isn’t so, Chris. Calvin may have been a cunning man, but he was full of evil, hate, and murder. When Rev. 21:8 warns that “the murderers” will end up “in the fiery lake…”, it means just that. Jesus says in Matt. 7:18 that “a good tree cannot bear bad fruit,” yet Calvin bore very bad fruit. The fruit of the true Holy Spirit described in Gal. 5:22,23 was far from characteristic of Calvin.

No, you still are not answering how you would deal with the verses I mentioned. Like just take 1 Tim. 2:6 and 1 John 2:2. If you think you have, oh, well, –the typical disconnect… But I do wonder why you say above, “Men go to Hell because they die of sins they WILLFULLY committed.” So they do have a will? Remember, to have the ability to act with one’s will, means one therefore has the ability to choose. Don’t you see how mixed up Calvinism has made you sound?

As far as your question to me –about where the Bible teaches that we have choice: Chris, where does the Bible teach the Trinity? Answer: All through the Scriptures. Same with our gift from Him concerning choice. It started in the Garden. That was the purpose of the “deadly” tree: To present us with the choice. The choice to obey or rebel. Next came the blatant choice presented to Cain: “If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but YOU must master it.” (Gen. 4:7)

I could go on, but I know you have a concordance and can look up plenty of references under “choose”, “follow”, “repent”, “stop”, “turn”, “believe”, “listen”, etc., which are all words connoting freedom of choice. Here’s two to start with: “Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to His voice, and hold fast to Him.” (Moses speaking as God’s mouthpiece in Deut. 30:19,20) And: “If any one chooses to do God’s will…” (Jesus in John 7:17)

Well, I don’t anticipate that you will change your mind any time soon, but I hope you will unscramble it once again from the teachings of man, study the Word of God as unbiasedly as you possibly can, and then teach your congregation, your family, and all others who listen to you, from that. I am certain that you will not be a Calvinist if you do that.

Do know that I plan to keep your beautiful family in prayer, as well as you and your ministry. In fact, last night I awoke in the night, your family photo kept coming to my mind, and I felt a flood of love for you all. I even wept. Hmmm… the love of God… It is so wondrous… And yes, He is just, and He hates sin, but He so, so loves people. Hell was created for the demons, and God has done His part to keep us from there. We are to preach this Good News, for “faith comes from hearing the message.. of Christ.” (Rom. 10:17) Oh, that we would all better know our loving God who “has compassion on all He has made.” (Ps. 145:9)

Sincerely,
Rachel

Rachel,

Do you realize how peculiar it is to speak of how hard-headed Calvinists are because they won’t change their minds? Why should we change our minds when we believe what Scripture teaches? Are you not being just as hard-headed for not becoming a Calvinist? You seem less offended at my being a Calvinist and more offended at my refusal to agree with you. Why won’t you change your mind? It is because you are convinced of being correct. But you don’t find me comparing you to atheists and Jehovah’s Witness even though you are just as adamant as they!

I am aware of the weight of pastoral responsibility. This is why I do not water down what Scripture teaches. Most of the people in my church are not Calvinists. We get along well but they are places where we disagree. But God has charged me to preach the Scriptures so I preach the Scriptures even when it means saying things my non-Calvinist brothers disagree with.

As for my children, I trust their salvation in the hands of God. I absolutely want to see them living for God. I want them in Heaven. I want them secure and happy for all eternity. I understand Paul in Romans 9:3, “For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.” But I understand that salvation is in God’s hands and I will trust it there with him. What I want to uphold is the glory of God. It would certainly be sin to uphold the glory of a creature but God is no creature. He is the creator, he is the one worthy of worship, he is the one to be magnified.

Consider passages like Isaiah 48:9-11 and Isaiah 43:25 and see that salvation is not as much for our good as it is for God’s glory. Consider also what I’ve mentioned several times, Romans 9:19-24 and see that even judgment is for the glory of God. These texts cannot be ignored. They must mean something or they would not be in the Bible. God’s greatest motivation – and what should be our greatest motivation – is his own glory. This is what Scripture teaches, this is what I believe.

You say I follow Calvin, I do not. I follow Christ and I follow his teachings in Scripture. My understanding of the Bible can be easily labelled Calvinism so I use the label Calvinist so people can understand something of my theology. It is a label of my beliefs, not of my following. You then try to use Servetus to diminish Calvin. Do you really know the history of the Servetus incident or Calvin’s involvement, or did you hear someone somewhere mention Servetus as a smear to John Calvin? To learn more of the real history behind this incident, watch the discussion at http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByConference/44/4230_Panel_Discussion/ and see what they have to say. It might surprise you.

Nonetheless, do we expect people to be perfect before we can learn from their teachings? Calvin was a flawed man, but so are all men. But Calvin’s writings and teachings are amazing and full of faith and devotion and passion for God and faithfulness to Scripture. There is much more to John Calvin than most people expect.

As for the will of man, yes, men have wills and make choices. The problem is, as mentioned from Romans 3:10-18, their wills are corrupt and no one seeks God. Everyone chooses only evil and wickedness and rebellion. No one would choose God on their own, they would always choose evil. This is what I have consistently stated in all my comments.

As for your explanation of choice, even the Genesis passage does not spell out human ability. It spells out God’s requirement for people. Adam and Eve before the Fall are the only people in all time and creation who have had both the will and the desire to do either good or evil. Once sin entered the world, the corruption was absolute. This is the meaning of the Calvinist teaching of total depravity. We are unable to choose good, unable to choose God, and this is the consistent message of Scripture. We should choose good. We are called to choose good. We are exhorted to choose God and follow him by faith. But no human being on the planet is capable of choosing God unless God first transforms that person. This is only what Scripture teaches. Again, see Ephesians 2.

Unfortunately, I do not believe you will change your mind any time soon. But unlike you I will not accuse you of being like the atheists or JW’s. I believe you are committed to following Christ faithfully and you have told me what you understand Scripture to mean. I think you are wrong and I hope you someday come to a better understanding of Scripture. But I am glad that nonetheless you are committed to Scripture unlike many who would just as soon throw it out the window.

Hey Chris,

Looks like you are having a fun time. :) My initial thoughts are that Rachel has more of an axe to grind, than to engage in a calm dialogue. You should feel free not only to defend your position, but show the logical fallacies found within her statements and assumptions. If she has studied Calvinism, like she boast, then she would know that the WCF and the LBC contain full chapters dealing with “Free Will” chapter 6 and the “Decrees” chapter 3. These two confessions spell out the reformed definition of “free will”.
Also, here are couple of questions to ponder.

1. Where does scripture teach that God is morally obligated to save anyone?

2. If God is mean, vicious, or a monster, when he creates people for hell apart from their will, then what is God when he creates people that he KNEW would reject Him by their “free will” and still sends them to hell?

3. Where does scripture teach that God is more concerned with man being free moral agents, than His own glory?

She demands her proof texts to be answered, without answering our texts. There has to be give and take in a discussion like this.

Grace and Peace,

James D. Clardy

Count me as another who grew up a Calvinist, ditched it for “free will”, and returned, convinced that it is God’s grace from the first to the last.

I agree with you Chris, the bible’s description of man’s spiritual state (dead, Ephesians 1-2) is essential in understanding the doctrines of grace. Dead people do not do and cannot do anything. There have no “spark”, no sliver of wisdom covered with the dross of sin, no little tinder that the Lord can blow on to coax a flame. They are dead, without hope, and utterly unable to do anything to help their salvation. Thanks be to God that He makes us alive, and we believe on the Lord Jesus and are saved. We love Him because He first loved us. Ephesians 1-2, John 6, Romans 8-9.

Also, it is crystal clear when ones looks back in history, the titans of Christianity are Calvinists.

Grace and peace. Dustin

Chris,
First, to James: Yes, I guess I must have “an axe to grind” –if that’s what you want to call it. I call it “contending for the faith” (Jude 1:3), promoting truth and nothing but…, and because “I hate every wrong path.” (Ps. 119:128) Why? Because I love others and want no one to go to Hell. Also, because God commands us to proclaim TRUTH, not error, since it is only the truth that frees everyone from sin’s present dominion and eternal penalty.

Back to Chris: You say that you would let yourself be accursed to save your children. Yet do you realize that you then set yourself up as more benevolent and merciful and loving than you set up God Himself? –God, who came in the flesh, into the world, to ransom it through the agony of the cross? So, let me give you an example of what I hear you saying. But I won’t use YOUR children, as that would (rightly so) appall and anger you. So, let’s use someone else’s child. Okay: You are watching a real-life drama on TV, and you see me sauntering along through a meadow. I come to a child, screaming in agony, bound to a railroad track. It can be seen that the bindings can easily be unwound, letting the child go free.

A whistle pierces the air –the whistle of a train. “Hmmmm…” you hear me say. “Oh, well.” I step over the child and continue on my way, taking pleasure in the beautiful surroundings. I look back to see the train hit the child….

Do you realize that if anyone would react in such a manner to someone in need –especially someone who could not help themselves– they would be justly thrown into prison or even sentenced to death? Even an ungodly nation has that much conscience. But you know that I would never react in such a way, and neither would you. But you attribute to God what you and I would never attribute to each other, or anyone else. We know instinctively that only a thoroughly evil person would have avoided helping someone when it was in their power to help.

Calvinists say that God is ABLE to save everyone, but purposefully withholds help from some, so as to get glory for Himself precisely by them going to eternal torment, which is way worse than one death blow from a train. So yes, this is a blasphemous doctrine that I will forever contend against! It reminds me of Jude 1:14,15 –”See, the Lord is coming… to judge everyone… of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” I will never be quiet when people say such wretched things about our awesome, kind, and merciful God! God has already unbound us all from “the railroad track” of destruction. But many, by their own foolishness and love of sin scream at God, grip the tracks tightly, and pull the cords ever more tightly around themselves. This, God does allow, for He has chosen to limit Himself from yanking them off the track forcibly in order that all may use the gift of free will, for He does not desire obedience or love from robots.

You call me peculiar. That’s fine. “Normal” would have been an insult to me for I want no part of normal “Christianity” since it is so lukewarm and compromised with the world and error.

I do find it strange that you continued to tell me to go to Piper’s websites for my theology and history lessons. That seems to me like telling someone to go to the Arian websites to find the “truth” about what Hitler promoted, or to the Mormon websites to learn about the true character of Joseph Smith. Instead, how about if we go to many various websites –those that are giving documented historical facts, those that try to be as objective and non-biased as possible, those that do not bow to any denomination’s belief system, and those that interpret Scripture with Scripture? This is what I do, and will continue to do.

Since you seem to admire Piper, I would suggest to you that you consider honestly that he could be very wrong. Don’t forget that Jesus says in Matt. 11:25 that things can be hidden from the wise and learned but revealed to little children. Why? Because the so-called “wise” purposefully deceive themselves in their arrogant search for prestige.

I happened across a very good website that I found just this last Saturday that addresses in depth Calvinism’s theology. It is excellent and explains very clearly why Piper’s and Calvin’s theology does not follow either Scripture or logic. Please read it, would you? I am only half finished reading it, as it is very meaty. Here it is:

http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/calvinism

Well, I am not wanting to bicker back and forth. However, possible wrong doctrinal teaching on either of our parts is damnable. So hopefully, we are all vigorously seeking only TRUTH. May we seek it honestly and humbly, find it, remain in it, and proclaim it. And may we never compromise it with error.

We are dearly loved,
Rachel

Rachel,

A few comments. First, you said, “So, let me give you an example of what I hear you saying. But I won’t use YOUR children, as that would (rightly so) appall and anger you.” Please don’t be disingenuous. You already used my children as an example in your previous comment. Why not use them now?

As for a child on train tracks, you forget something vital. Non-Christians are spiritually dead and unable to move. The non-Calvinist would see a child tied to the tracks and will go untie him and wait for him to decide to get up off the tracks on his own. The problem is he can’t move, he’s dead. To save that child on the tracks the non-Calvinist will have to pick him up and carry him off the tracks without the child ever having to desire being saved from the train. The moment that happens the non-Calvinist becomes a Calvinist.

In the word I gave where I said I sympathize with Paul, Paul and I both recognize that we are not God. I yield to God’s good purpose and trust him with whatever he chooses to do. The important choice in these issues is God’s choice, not my choice.

You say, “Calvinists say that God is ABLE to save everyone” – do you argue that God is unable to save everyone? Then you worship a weak God. If you argue he is able to save everyone but does not do so then you have the same problem as the Calvinist – you must answer what desire in God is more powerful than his desire for everyone to be saved. Your answer is that God loves our free will more than he loves our salvation. Nowhere does Scripture present even a hint of this view. But over and over again – including Romans 9, which I’ve repeatedly mentioned – Scripture mentions that God’s chief work is to uphold his glory.

You say I should present neutral websites. There are no such websites. Everyone comes from a certain perspective. So you send me a link to a website that comes from a position against Calvinism. That makes sense – you are not a Calvinist, of course you will find such websites reliable. I present you information that argues for Calvinism, why would that surprise you? But on the history of Calvin himself, a vast amount of bad information exists. Men love to hate Calvin and slander him over and over. Did you bother to view any of the things I gave you to see the other side of the story or are you willing to have your ears tickled with men who only say what you already believe?

I have studied this issue in great detail. I have read Scripture repeatedly. I have talked and argued and labored through various sides of the debate. And the conclusion I have come to is that Calvinist theology most closely reflects the biblical teaching on salvation. I believe what you have argued for does not reflect Scripture. We disagree. Fine. Move on. Contrary to what you say, those who are wrong on this issue are not damned for their belief. I expect to see you in Heaven even though you are wrong. I hope you someday come to an understanding of the truth but until then I can work with you as a sister in Christ.

Chris,
You accuse me of something you actually were the one to do: You were the one who brought your children into this debate. Back on Oct. 12 at 9:11 p.m. you say, “A brief example could be given with my children…” Chris, please debate honestly.

Also, I have already told you that I too have studied Calvinism “in great detail” –to use your words. Please stop acting like I have not. I find that you are consistently ready to mock other’s beliefs, which is how you began this thread back with what you said about the misinformed person who wrote the letter to the Alabama Baptist editor. If you cannot take critique of your beliefs, then do not dish such out to others.

You say, “…it does remind us that we need to be well informed before we publicly oppose something. At the very least, present it accurately! As for the letter quoted above, most of what he opposes I also oppose. I’m just curious why he decided to label it Calvinism.” Hmmm… maybe you were not truly curious, for you don’t appear to be open to why he wrote what he did. Maybe you merely wanted an excuse to belittle, and let your “yes-men” belittle, someone else’s convictions. Chris, you are the one who appears to be misinformed here. I don’t know this person, but he is accurately portraying Calvinism as taught by Calvin and Piper and Packer and a host of others. This is why I initially commented: Because it IS strange that you pretend that you know nothing about the details of the TULIP doctrine, but then you turn around and promote it.

You’ve said more than once that I seem surprised. No, there’s really no surprise, for you are manifesting the typical Calvinist who contradicts himself and who puts his head in the sand. I am just sad for you… as well as for all your hearers. You say in regards to history about Calvin that there is “a vast amount of bad information that exists.” You’re silly, Chris! Who says? YOU do. You have decided to believe that. Is that what you say about other historical documentation that doesn’t fit your style? Besides, most intelligent people can sift through and find a lot of good information that is definitely reliable.

Anyway, no, we will likely not see each other in Heaven, unless one of us changes to the true gospel. Because you and I teach very different gospels. You and I teach very different ways of salvation. I teach that salvation is extended to everyone by a very kind and merciful God who “does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) And that He has already drawn everyone by Jesus being lifted up (John 12:32) on the cross to pay for everyone’s sins who obey, by the gift of free will, the command to believe and trust in this atoning sacrifice. You teach a god who purposefully withholds the ability for billions to repent, while at the same time commanding everyone to repent, including those he REFUSES to enable. This is not the God of the Bible; thus you worship a different god. As I titled my blog yesterday, your god is “He Who Creates That He May Torture”. So your god is either deranged or downright evil. It’s called “doctrines of demons” as 1 Tim. 4:1 states; and as 2 Cor. 11:4 informs us, such teachings come from “a different spirit” and is thus “a different gospel.” A different gospel is no gospel (Gal. 1:6,7), and the one who preaches such IS cursed with this curse: “Let him be eternally condemned.” (v. 8,9) Those are not my words. That’s Scripture.

I will move on, but remember that the blood of our hearers is on our heads. I am sad that you could not take even a couple of the verses I asked about and explain them carefully. I am sad that you seem to be saying that you will not go to the very excellent website I mentioned and try to read it in the mindset that maybe Calvinism is dead wrong. I have done this, Chris. For eight long months I decided to read everything as if I was the one who could be very wrong. This is called being wise, informed, open-minded, yet discerning. You imply you are of this type, but I do not see that fruit.

No, true Calvinism, as taught by Calvin and Piper, is a false gospel. It pretends to be Christianity, but it is absolutely NOT Christianity. And yes, I will compare you to others who immerse themselves in cults. In fact, you defend Calvin almost the exact way that the Mormons defend Joseph Smith or that the Muslims defend Mohammed.

Well, consider yourself warned, though I doubt you will have the courage to post this.

Sincerely,
Rachel
http://smilesback.wordpress.com

Rachel,

Having read quite a bit from each of those men you mentioned (Calvin, Piper, and Packer), I can tell you what the letter writer described does not resemble what these men teach and it does not resemble Calvinism. I uphold TULIP as being what the Bible teaches. I do not uphold that letter writer as representing Calvinism.

As for the rest of your comment, well, I have nothing more to say than what I have already said. Though I will mention that I did go to that website and read some (not all) of its material. Did you visit any of the links I gave you?

“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”
(2Ti 2:24-26)

Rachel, I would encourage you to read these words and think about the way you have been conducting yourself on this thread. You have accused Chris of being an apostate, without any evidence I might add, your attitude is one of bitterness and maliciousness. You have practiced the opposite of what you have preached. “Contending for the faith” is not a license to talk or treat people in the manner which you have. What good is your gospel if you cannot treat others with grace and love?

Feel free to answer my questions from the comment above. Give and take. I would love to have a kind discussion on truth, if that is possible.

Rachel,

Non-reformed men: Pelagius, Arminius, Wesley, Billy Sunday, Charles Finney, Billy Graham, CS Lewis (whom I love) almost any pastor on tv today. Reformed men: the apostle Paul, Augustine, Aquinus, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Spurgeon, Sproul, Piper, and William Carey.

Would you agree that there is no comparison between these groups? Could I get you to agree that William Carey, a calvinist, is arguably the missionary most used by the Lord in history? And one more, could I get you to agree that the fruit of arminianism is the invitation, the anxious seat, and the bloated roles of churches everywhere because of people who “walked the aisle” and were never converted, and do not attend church?

The fruit of calvinism is bible centered doctrine, the founding of modern missions, and preaching.

I must say that I admire your zeal, but you are in wrong to label calvinism as a false Gospel. Jesus taught it. What do you think happened when the Lord Jesus preached the Doctrines of Grace in John chapter 6? Most went away, the only ones left following Him were His disciples. No, most people do not like it. It offends natural sensibilities. Your zeal in opposing it is nothing new; in fact, it is old hat. Your doctrine of free will is utterly without biblical support.

As you sneer at calvinism, you may as well sneer at Mont Blanc, to paraphrase a great preacher. It is biblical Christianity, the same as the apostles practiced.

Grace and Peace. Dustin

Received a follow-up comment from Rachel via email. She asked that it not be posted, but it was pretty much along the same lines as the other things she has said in this thread. From this email I will assume she won’t be commenting on this thread again, so if you are waiting for a response from her it is not likely to come.

Chris,
Oh well. I wish her the best, as she is a sister.
I read much from the websites she listed, and did not find the material new or compelling.
Much of the argument one hears against the doctrines of grace is emotional and prideful, and not sober critique. Many calvinists know this, as they were once the ones arguing that way in favor of free will. I will say this: I believe correct doctrine is important and worth contending for. I also believe that a man’s fruit shows if he has laid hold of eternal life by faith in the Lord Jesus. I guess my point is that Rachel, and David Servant, can hold to doctrines that are biblically unsupported, and yet live fruitful lives clinging to the Lord Jesus, and to that we should say amen.

Dustin

I am a Calvinist, and I believe in what is being discussed here as “Calvinism” (whether you call it predestination, sovereign grace, TULIP, or the “Five Points of Calvinism”). But this is not the sum of Calvinism or Reformation theology.

It is a mistake to equate Calvinism with this one doctrine that he taught. As I said, I agree that this is a beautiful doctrine and a tremendous source of comfort for Christians and believe that it should be taught. But it is such a small part of this great theologian’s work. Please, read Calvin on prayer or church order or justification. In his Institutes (Book III, Chapter 20), Calvin gives the church a beautiful biblical teaching about prayer in the Christian life. It’s a classic and should be read by all. Calvin taught all of Scripture all the time. It’s a shame to confine his legacy to predestination.

Those who claim that Calvin taught a cold or ugly gospel are just wrong. Period. But they are not to blame. Schools (from elementary schools to private colleges) have sought to obscure Calvin’s teachings through distortion. As an undergraduate I labored through an “Introduction to Puritan Thought” that used as its source material a dishonestly edited excerpt from Edwards’s “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God,” some Hawthorne novels and short stories, and some modern-day marxist-feminist screed against how women were oppressed in that “system.” I bet you can guess how accurate this portrayal was, and all the “evil” of Puritanism was, of course, traced back to Calvin. Sad. But that’s what our society teaches children about biblical doctrines and godly men.

Chris, you handled the disagreement well. I (as I’m sure you do) would consider it an utmost honor to be grouped with “cultists” like Calvin, Piper, and Packer. [Note: It was not the Calvinist who damned someone to hell.]

God bless!

Calvinism can become bigger than the gospel at times. While theology is important, and these thinkers should be discussed, Calvin seems to be lifted to sainthood at times.

I know plenty of calvinistist, they are reinventing themselves in the youth through the homeschool movement. Largely, I find them to be arrogant, losing touch with the humility of acknowledging our connection to the savior as a gift. I find them divisive and judgemental because there is no need for the great commission, which can bring the church together to share the grace that once saved us and remind us of our need for christ.

When I interact with these folks, I don’t feeling of christ’s love and acceptance from them, I get the idea they are determining if i am on the “elect” ship before they chose to get too close. I feel like it’s a bit of a club and you might not be invited and thet certainly are not going to invite you.

Since, it seems you hold to these ideologies, Maybe you can speak to these experiences I have had… I am open to hearing how to love them and live among them.

thanks eliza

Quote original article……”If I thought for a minute that there are people for whom the gospel of Jesus Christ is not meant, I’d go back to a secular job and just let God do what he’s going to do.” What this guy really means is this. I would rather denounce the supposed calling that God has placed on my life to be a pastor and completely ignore and disobey his last commandment to us than submit to his Word if God does in fact Call us to himself through and effectual calling.
This guy is a joke. I wonder if he ever reads what he wrote and beats his head on a desk.