I know plenty of calvinistist, they are reinventing themselves in the youth through the homeschool movement. Largely, I find them to be arrogant, losing touch with the humility of acknowledging our connection to the savior as a gift. I find them divisive and judgemental because there is no need for the great commission, which can bring the church together to share the grace that once saved us and remind us of our need for christ.

When I interact with these folks, I don’t feeling of christ’s love and acceptance from them, I get the idea they are determining if i am on the “elect” ship before they chose to get too close. I feel like it’s a bit of a club and you might not be invited and thet certainly are not going to invite you.

Since, it seems you hold to these ideologies, Maybe you can speak to these experiences I have had… I am open to hearing how to love them and live among them.

thanks eliza

It is a mistake to equate Calvinism with this one doctrine that he taught. As I said, I agree that this is a beautiful doctrine and a tremendous source of comfort for Christians and believe that it should be taught. But it is such a small part of this great theologian’s work. Please, read Calvin on prayer or church order or justification. In his Institutes (Book III, Chapter 20), Calvin gives the church a beautiful biblical teaching about prayer in the Christian life. It’s a classic and should be read by all. Calvin taught all of Scripture all the time. It’s a shame to confine his legacy to predestination.

Those who claim that Calvin taught a cold or ugly gospel are just wrong. Period. But they are not to blame. Schools (from elementary schools to private colleges) have sought to obscure Calvin’s teachings through distortion. As an undergraduate I labored through an “Introduction to Puritan Thought” that used as its source material a dishonestly edited excerpt from Edwards’s “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God,” some Hawthorne novels and short stories, and some modern-day marxist-feminist screed against how women were oppressed in that “system.” I bet you can guess how accurate this portrayal was, and all the “evil” of Puritanism was, of course, traced back to Calvin. Sad. But that’s what our society teaches children about biblical doctrines and godly men.

Chris, you handled the disagreement well. I (as I’m sure you do) would consider it an utmost honor to be grouped with “cultists” like Calvin, Piper, and Packer. [Note: It was not the Calvinist who damned someone to hell.]

God bless!

Dustin

Non-reformed men: Pelagius, Arminius, Wesley, Billy Sunday, Charles Finney, Billy Graham, CS Lewis (whom I love) almost any pastor on tv today. Reformed men: the apostle Paul, Augustine, Aquinus, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Spurgeon, Sproul, Piper, and William Carey.

Would you agree that there is no comparison between these groups? Could I get you to agree that William Carey, a calvinist, is arguably the missionary most used by the Lord in history? And one more, could I get you to agree that the fruit of arminianism is the invitation, the anxious seat, and the bloated roles of churches everywhere because of people who “walked the aisle” and were never converted, and do not attend church?

The fruit of calvinism is bible centered doctrine, the founding of modern missions, and preaching.

I must say that I admire your zeal, but you are in wrong to label calvinism as a false Gospel. Jesus taught it. What do you think happened when the Lord Jesus preached the Doctrines of Grace in John chapter 6? Most went away, the only ones left following Him were His disciples. No, most people do not like it. It offends natural sensibilities. Your zeal in opposing it is nothing new; in fact, it is old hat. Your doctrine of free will is utterly without biblical support.

As you sneer at calvinism, you may as well sneer at Mont Blanc, to paraphrase a great preacher. It is biblical Christianity, the same as the apostles practiced.

Grace and Peace. Dustin

Rachel, I would encourage you to read these words and think about the way you have been conducting yourself on this thread. You have accused Chris of being an apostate, without any evidence I might add, your attitude is one of bitterness and maliciousness. You have practiced the opposite of what you have preached. “Contending for the faith” is not a license to talk or treat people in the manner which you have. What good is your gospel if you cannot treat others with grace and love?

Feel free to answer my questions from the comment above. Give and take. I would love to have a kind discussion on truth, if that is possible.

Having read quite a bit from each of those men you mentioned (Calvin, Piper, and Packer), I can tell you what the letter writer described does not resemble what these men teach and it does not resemble Calvinism. I uphold TULIP as being what the Bible teaches. I do not uphold that letter writer as representing Calvinism.

As for the rest of your comment, well, I have nothing more to say than what I have already said. Though I will mention that I did go to that website and read some (not all) of its material. Did you visit any of the links I gave you?

Also, I have already told you that I too have studied Calvinism “in great detail” –to use your words. Please stop acting like I have not. I find that you are consistently ready to mock other’s beliefs, which is how you began this thread back with what you said about the misinformed person who wrote the letter to the Alabama Baptist editor. If you cannot take critique of your beliefs, then do not dish such out to others.

You say, “…it does remind us that we need to be well informed before we publicly oppose something. At the very least, present it accurately! As for the letter quoted above, most of what he opposes I also oppose. I’m just curious why he decided to label it Calvinism.” Hmmm… maybe you were not truly curious, for you don’t appear to be open to why he wrote what he did. Maybe you merely wanted an excuse to belittle, and let your “yes-men” belittle, someone else’s convictions. Chris, you are the one who appears to be misinformed here. I don’t know this person, but he is accurately portraying Calvinism as taught by Calvin and Piper and Packer and a host of others. This is why I initially commented: Because it IS strange that you pretend that you know nothing about the details of the TULIP doctrine, but then you turn around and promote it.

You’ve said more than once that I seem surprised. No, there’s really no surprise, for you are manifesting the typical Calvinist who contradicts himself and who puts his head in the sand. I am just sad for you… as well as for all your hearers. You say in regards to history about Calvin that there is “a vast amount of bad information that exists.” You’re silly, Chris! Who says? YOU do. You have decided to believe that. Is that what you say about other historical documentation that doesn’t fit your style? Besides, most intelligent people can sift through and find a lot of good information that is definitely reliable.

Anyway, no, we will likely not see each other in Heaven, unless one of us changes to the true gospel. Because you and I teach very different gospels. You and I teach very different ways of salvation. I teach that salvation is extended to everyone by a very kind and merciful God who “does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) And that He has already drawn everyone by Jesus being lifted up (John 12:32) on the cross to pay for everyone’s sins who obey, by the gift of free will, the command to believe and trust in this atoning sacrifice. You teach a god who purposefully withholds the ability for billions to repent, while at the same time commanding everyone to repent, including those he REFUSES to enable. This is not the God of the Bible; thus you worship a different god. As I titled my blog yesterday, your god is “He Who Creates That He May Torture”. So your god is either deranged or downright evil. It’s called “doctrines of demons” as 1 Tim. 4:1 states; and as 2 Cor. 11:4 informs us, such teachings come from “a different spirit” and is thus “a different gospel.” A different gospel is no gospel (Gal. 1:6,7), and the one who preaches such IS cursed with this curse: “Let him be eternally condemned.” (v. 8,9) Those are not my words. That’s Scripture.

I will move on, but remember that the blood of our hearers is on our heads. I am sad that you could not take even a couple of the verses I asked about and explain them carefully. I am sad that you seem to be saying that you will not go to the very excellent website I mentioned and try to read it in the mindset that maybe Calvinism is dead wrong. I have done this, Chris. For eight long months I decided to read everything as if I was the one who could be very wrong. This is called being wise, informed, open-minded, yet discerning. You imply you are of this type, but I do not see that fruit.

No, true Calvinism, as taught by Calvin and Piper, is a false gospel. It pretends to be Christianity, but it is absolutely NOT Christianity. And yes, I will compare you to others who immerse themselves in cults. In fact, you defend Calvin almost the exact way that the Mormons defend Joseph Smith or that the Muslims defend Mohammed.

Well, consider yourself warned, though I doubt you will have the courage to post this.

Sincerely,
Rachel
http://smilesback.wordpress.com

A few comments. First, you said, “So, let me give you an example of what I hear you saying. But I won’t use YOUR children, as that would (rightly so) appall and anger you.” Please don’t be disingenuous. You already used my children as an example in your previous comment. Why not use them now?

As for a child on train tracks, you forget something vital. Non-Christians are spiritually dead and unable to move. The non-Calvinist would see a child tied to the tracks and will go untie him and wait for him to decide to get up off the tracks on his own. The problem is he can’t move, he’s dead. To save that child on the tracks the non-Calvinist will have to pick him up and carry him off the tracks without the child ever having to desire being saved from the train. The moment that happens the non-Calvinist becomes a Calvinist.

In the word I gave where I said I sympathize with Paul, Paul and I both recognize that we are not God. I yield to God’s good purpose and trust him with whatever he chooses to do. The important choice in these issues is God’s choice, not my choice.

You say, “Calvinists say that God is ABLE to save everyone” – do you argue that God is unable to save everyone? Then you worship a weak God. If you argue he is able to save everyone but does not do so then you have the same problem as the Calvinist – you must answer what desire in God is more powerful than his desire for everyone to be saved. Your answer is that God loves our free will more than he loves our salvation. Nowhere does Scripture present even a hint of this view. But over and over again – including Romans 9, which I’ve repeatedly mentioned – Scripture mentions that God’s chief work is to uphold his glory.

You say I should present neutral websites. There are no such websites. Everyone comes from a certain perspective. So you send me a link to a website that comes from a position against Calvinism. That makes sense – you are not a Calvinist, of course you will find such websites reliable. I present you information that argues for Calvinism, why would that surprise you? But on the history of Calvin himself, a vast amount of bad information exists. Men love to hate Calvin and slander him over and over. Did you bother to view any of the things I gave you to see the other side of the story or are you willing to have your ears tickled with men who only say what you already believe?

I have studied this issue in great detail. I have read Scripture repeatedly. I have talked and argued and labored through various sides of the debate. And the conclusion I have come to is that Calvinist theology most closely reflects the biblical teaching on salvation. I believe what you have argued for does not reflect Scripture. We disagree. Fine. Move on. Contrary to what you say, those who are wrong on this issue are not damned for their belief. I expect to see you in Heaven even though you are wrong. I hope you someday come to an understanding of the truth but until then I can work with you as a sister in Christ.