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	<title>Comments on: A Response to Steve Lemke on Age of Accountability</title>
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	<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/</link>
	<description>The web home of Chris Roberts</description>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4388</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4388</guid>
		<description>Five year old is now engaged in making cookies along with three year old, with a one year old spectator.

For anyone else wanting to compare, here is chapter 6 of the WCF and SLC side-by-side: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.seektheholy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/WCF-and-SLC-Chapter-6.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;WCF and SLC Chapter 6.pdf&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Five year old is now engaged in making cookies along with three year old, with a one year old spectator.</p>
<p>For anyone else wanting to compare, here is chapter 6 of the WCF and SLC side-by-side: <a href="http://www.seektheholy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/WCF-and-SLC-Chapter-6.pdf" rel="nofollow">WCF and SLC Chapter 6.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4387</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4387</guid>
		<description>One more note. Just noticed that the SLC removes section 6 entirely. It was simply merged with section 3. Section 5 in the SLC is equivalent to section 5 in the WCF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more note. Just noticed that the SLC removes section 6 entirely. It was simply merged with section 3. Section 5 in the SLC is equivalent to section 5 in the WCF.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4386</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4386</guid>
		<description>I have a 5 year old vying for my attention, so I&#039;ll have to say more later. To respond, though, I&#039;ve got chapter six of both WCF and SLC laid out side-by-side, and some of the differences are interesting. For this chapter, at least, I&#039;m not seeing any difference of belief, though there are different emphases.

Lemke made reference to section VI of chapter 6 of the WCF and SLC. Section VI is completely different in the SLC than in the WCF, as the writers of the SLC seem to want to stress that believers in this life continue in sin. But even with that, SLC section III (discussed in a moment) contains most of the language found in the SCF section VI. Recognizing that confessions always arise in a particular historical context, the SLC probably changed section VI, moving the original contents to section III, in order to respond to an issue in their day.

But the main section on original sin, section III, is very similar in the two confessions. The SLC is longer, expanding some of the points, but so far I cannot see any actual difference in what they teach about original sin. So the change in section VI is due to an altogether different focus in the SLC, but section III, on original sin, is essentially the same.

Now to go make a 5 year old giggle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a 5 year old vying for my attention, so I&#8217;ll have to say more later. To respond, though, I&#8217;ve got chapter six of both WCF and SLC laid out side-by-side, and some of the differences are interesting. For this chapter, at least, I&#8217;m not seeing any difference of belief, though there are different emphases.</p>
<p>Lemke made reference to section VI of chapter 6 of the WCF and SLC. Section VI is completely different in the SLC than in the WCF, as the writers of the SLC seem to want to stress that believers in this life continue in sin. But even with that, SLC section III (discussed in a moment) contains most of the language found in the SCF section VI. Recognizing that confessions always arise in a particular historical context, the SLC probably changed section VI, moving the original contents to section III, in order to respond to an issue in their day.</p>
<p>But the main section on original sin, section III, is very similar in the two confessions. The SLC is longer, expanding some of the points, but so far I cannot see any actual difference in what they teach about original sin. So the change in section VI is due to an altogether different focus in the SLC, but section III, on original sin, is essentially the same.</p>
<p>Now to go make a 5 year old giggle.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4385</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4385</guid>
		<description>Having left off the citing of historical sources, allow me to say something about the relationship between the WCF and the 2LC. The authors (redactors?) of the 2LC demonstrated clearly to all posterity their intention to retain from the WCF all except what they could not possibly affirm. You do well demonstrate that some of the language pertaining to original sin has been retained into the 2LC. On the other hand, Lemke does well demonstrate that some of the language pertaining to original sin has been removed as the WCF was transformed into the 2LC. What reason would you offer for the modification, if we should presume that these Baptists were entirely comfortable with the WCF&#039;s theology of original sin?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having left off the citing of historical sources, allow me to say something about the relationship between the WCF and the 2LC. The authors (redactors?) of the 2LC demonstrated clearly to all posterity their intention to retain from the WCF all except what they could not possibly affirm. You do well demonstrate that some of the language pertaining to original sin has been retained into the 2LC. On the other hand, Lemke does well demonstrate that some of the language pertaining to original sin has been removed as the WCF was transformed into the 2LC. What reason would you offer for the modification, if we should presume that these Baptists were entirely comfortable with the WCF&#8217;s theology of original sin?</p>
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		<title>By: Bart Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4384</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4384</guid>
		<description>So, I&#039;ll leave it at that. Thanks for helping with the formatting issues, or if you cannot help, at least for being patient with them. The topic is, at the very same time, important and yet muddled by the repeated use of similar terminology to describe slightly different ideas down through the years. It is probably well worth people&#039;s time to work through it all. Thanks for hosting the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, I&#8217;ll leave it at that. Thanks for helping with the formatting issues, or if you cannot help, at least for being patient with them. The topic is, at the very same time, important and yet muddled by the repeated use of similar terminology to describe slightly different ideas down through the years. It is probably well worth people&#8217;s time to work through it all. Thanks for hosting the conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4383</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4383</guid>
		<description>3. There are then also the numerous Baptist confessions of faith that employ the term &quot;original sin&quot; but define it to mean a nature inclined toward sin rather than an actual sin of which one is guilty. For example, consider the Orthodox Creed of 1678, produced in the days of Thomas Grantham as an attempt to conciliate differences between Calvinists and Arminians in the face of Clarendon Code persecution.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;b&gt;15. Article. — Of original, or birth, sin.&lt;/b&gt;

Original sin, is the fault and corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally descendeth from Adam by natural generation, by means of which, man has not only lost that original righteousness, that God created him in, but
is naturally inclined to all manner of evil, being conceived in sin, and brought forth in iniquity; and, as St. Paul saith, the flesh lusteth against the spirit. And therefore every man justly deserveth God’s wrath, and damnation. And this concupisence, or indwelling lust, remaineth even in the regenerate, that they cannot love nor obey God perfectly in this life, according to the tenour of the first covenant.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That &quot;original sin&quot; by this definition is something that &quot;remaineth even in the regenerate&quot; shows, it seems to me, that this is something other than an Augustinian understanding of original sin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>3. There are then also the numerous Baptist confessions of faith that employ the term &#8220;original sin&#8221; but define it to mean a nature inclined toward sin rather than an actual sin of which one is guilty. For example, consider the Orthodox Creed of 1678, produced in the days of Thomas Grantham as an attempt to conciliate differences between Calvinists and Arminians in the face of Clarendon Code persecution.</p>
<blockquote><p><b>15. Article. — Of original, or birth, sin.</b></p>
<p>Original sin, is the fault and corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally descendeth from Adam by natural generation, by means of which, man has not only lost that original righteousness, that God created him in, but<br />
is naturally inclined to all manner of evil, being conceived in sin, and brought forth in iniquity; and, as St. Paul saith, the flesh lusteth against the spirit. And therefore every man justly deserveth God’s wrath, and damnation. And this concupisence, or indwelling lust, remaineth even in the regenerate, that they cannot love nor obey God perfectly in this life, according to the tenour of the first covenant.</p></blockquote>
<p>That &#8220;original sin&#8221; by this definition is something that &#8220;remaineth even in the regenerate&#8221; shows, it seems to me, that this is something other than an Augustinian understanding of original sin.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4382</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4382</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised the formatting didn&#039;t come through, later I&#039;ll have to figure out why it&#039;s filtering out the tags.

At any rate, thanks for the historical note on the confessions. Look forward to seeing the others as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised the formatting didn&#8217;t come through, later I&#8217;ll have to figure out why it&#8217;s filtering out the tags.</p>
<p>At any rate, thanks for the historical note on the confessions. Look forward to seeing the others as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4381</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4381</guid>
		<description>2. Smythe&#039;s &quot;Short Confession&quot; of 1609.

&lt;blockquote&gt;5. That there is no original sin (lit;, no sin of origin or descent), but all sin is actual and voluntary, viz., a word, a deed, or a design against the law of God; and therefore, infants are without sin.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2. Smythe&#8217;s &#8220;Short Confession&#8221; of 1609.</p>
<blockquote><p>5. That there is no original sin (lit;, no sin of origin or descent), but all sin is actual and voluntary, viz., a word, a deed, or a design against the law of God; and therefore, infants are without sin.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Bart Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4380</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4380</guid>
		<description>I see that I can&#039;t put paragraph tags inside blockquote tags in these comments. My apologies for the lumping together of all of the articles in the comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that I can&#8217;t put paragraph tags inside blockquote tags in these comments. My apologies for the lumping together of all of the articles in the comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/comment-page-1/#comment-4379</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1081#comment-4379</guid>
		<description>Chris,

I can at least answer your historical question regarding Baptist confessions of faith that have repudiated original sin:

1. John Smythe&#039;s &quot;Propositions and Conclusions concerning True Christian Religion&quot;: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;18. That original sin is an idle term, and that there is no such thing as men intend by the word (Ezekiel 18:20), because God threatened death only to Adam (Genesis 2:17) not to his posterity, and because God created the soul (Hebrews 12:9).19. That if original sin might have passed from Adam to his posterity, Christ’s death, which was effectual be-fore Cain and Abel’s birth, He being the lamb slain from the beginning of the world, stopped the issue and passage thereof (Revelation 13:8).20. That infants are conceived and born in innocency without sin, and that so dying are undoubtedly saved, and that this is to be understood of all infants, under heaven (Genesis 5:2; 1:27 compared with 1 Corinthians 15:49) for where there is no law there is no transgression, sin is not imputed while there is no law (Romans 4:15 and 5:13), but the law was not given to infants, but to them that could understand (Romans 5:13; Matthew 13:9; Nehemiah 8:3).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

NOTE: I don&#039;t know how long a single comment can be, so I&#039;ll break these out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>I can at least answer your historical question regarding Baptist confessions of faith that have repudiated original sin:</p>
<p>1. John Smythe&#8217;s &#8220;Propositions and Conclusions concerning True Christian Religion&#8221;: </p>
<blockquote><p>18. That original sin is an idle term, and that there is no such thing as men intend by the word (Ezekiel 18:20), because God threatened death only to Adam (Genesis 2:17) not to his posterity, and because God created the soul (Hebrews 12:9).19. That if original sin might have passed from Adam to his posterity, Christ’s death, which was effectual be-fore Cain and Abel’s birth, He being the lamb slain from the beginning of the world, stopped the issue and passage thereof (Revelation 13:8).20. That infants are conceived and born in innocency without sin, and that so dying are undoubtedly saved, and that this is to be understood of all infants, under heaven (Genesis 5:2; 1:27 compared with 1 Corinthians 15:49) for where there is no law there is no transgression, sin is not imputed while there is no law (Romans 4:15 and 5:13), but the law was not given to infants, but to them that could understand (Romans 5:13; Matthew 13:9; Nehemiah 8:3).</p></blockquote>
<p>NOTE: I don&#8217;t know how long a single comment can be, so I&#8217;ll break these out.</p>
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