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	<title>Seek the Holy &#187; Theology</title>
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	<description>The web home of Chris Roberts</description>
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		<title>John Piper on the Logic of Calvinism</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2012/01/03/john-piper-on-the-logic-of-calvinism/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2012/01/03/john-piper-on-the-logic-of-calvinism/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Logic]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In a post on Chesterton and Elfland, John Piper makes a few observation about the common accusation that Calvinists rely on logic more than Scripture. He says: It is a great irony to me that Calvinists are stereotyped as logic-driven. For forty years my experience has been the opposite. The Calvinists I have known (English [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a post on <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/the-sovereign-god-of-elfland-why-chestertons-anti-calvinism-doesnt-put-me-off">Chesterton and Elfland</a>, John Piper makes a few observation about the common accusation that Calvinists rely on logic more than Scripture. He says:</p>
<blockquote><p>It is a great irony to me that Calvinists are stereotyped as logic-driven. For forty years my experience has been the opposite. The Calvinists I have known (English Puritans, Edwards, Newton, Spurgeon, Packer, Sproul) are not logic driven, but Bible-driven. It’s the challengers who bring their logic to the Bible and nullify text after text. Branches are lopped off by “logic,” not exegesis.</p>
<p>Who are the great enjoyers of paradox today? Who are the pastors and theologians who grab both horns of every biblical dilemma and swear to the God-Man: <em>I will never let go of either</em>.</p>
<p>Not the Calvinism-critics that I meet. They read of divine love, and say that predestination cannot be. They read of human choice and say the divine rule of all our steps cannot be. They read of human resistance, and say that irresistible grace cannot be. Who is logic-driven?</p>
<p>For forty years Calvinism has been, for me, a vision of life that embraces mystery more than any vision I know. It is not logic-driven. It is driven by a vision of the ineffable, galactic vastness of God’s Word.</p>
<p>Let’s be clear: It does not embrace <em>contradiction</em>. Chesterton and I both agree that true logic is the law of “Elfland.” “If the Ugly Sisters are older than Cinderella, it is (in an iron and awful sense) <em>necessary</em> that Cinderella is younger than the Ugly Sisters.” Neither God nor his word is self-contradictory. But paradoxes? Yes.</p>
<p>We happy Calvinists don’t claim to get the heavens into our heads. We try to get our heads into the heavens. We don’t claim comprehensive answers to revealed paradoxes. We believe. We try to understand. And we break out into song and poetry again and again.</p></blockquote>
<p>Amen and amen.</p>
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		<title>Total Depravity, Prevenient Grace, and John 16:8</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/09/10/total-depravity-prevenient-grace-and-john-168/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/09/10/total-depravity-prevenient-grace-and-john-168/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Arminianism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Prevenient Grace]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Classical Arminians agree with Calvinists about total depravity and man&#8217;s natural inability to respond to the gospel. We are born depraved, fallen in sin, with a natural hatred for the things of God. No man will be saved (because no one would want the grace of God) unless God first does something to undo man&#8217;s [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Classical Arminians agree with Calvinists about total depravity and man&#8217;s natural inability to respond to the gospel. We are born depraved, fallen in sin, with a natural hatred for the things of God. No man will be saved (because no one would want the grace of God) unless God first does something to undo man&#8217;s natural inability.</p>
<p>The Calvinist response is irresistible grace, by which God regenerates sinners, taking away their dead hearts and giving them hearts of faith. The Arminian response is prevenient grace, by which God lifts all people out of their totally depraved state, bringing the conviction of sin and desire for holiness that makes it possible for individuals to respond to the gospel.</p>
<p>A <a href="http://evangelicalarminians.org/birch.Gods-Proactive-Enabling-Sufficient-Prevenient-Grace">recent post</a> at the <a href="http://evangelicalarminians.org/">Evangelical Arminians</a> (originally posted at <a href="http://thearminian.net/2011/09/02/gods-proactive-enabling-sufficient-prevenient-grace/">The Arminian</a>) blog explains the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace. While the post does a good job of explaining the what and why of prevenient grace, it is weak in one area. After saying that &#8220;the Calvinistic claim is contrary to Scripture&#8221;, the writer nonetheless fails to show that prevenient grace is a biblical doctrine. It has been my contention that prevenient grace, while a useful theory that would reconcile the problem of total depravity, is not found in Scripture and as such is not an option available to us.</p>
<p>In fact, throughout the entry, the only verse cited to demonstrate prevenient grace is <cite class="bibleref" title="John 16:8" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_1681" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/John%2016.8/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p43016008.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num woc&quot; id=&quot;v43016008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;woc&quot;&gt;And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:&lt;/span&gt;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_1681', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">John 16:8</a>:</p>
<blockquote class="esvblock"><div class="esv"><span style='font-size: larger; font-weight: bold;'><a class="bibleref" title="John 16:8" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/John%2016.8/" target="_blank">John 16:8</a></span><span class='esv_inline_header'></span></p>
<div class="esv-text">
<p id="p43016008.01-1"><span class="verse-num woc" id="v43016008-1">8&nbsp;</span><span class="woc">And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:</span>  (<a href="http://www.esv.org" class="copyright">ESV</a>)</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>This verse is used to show that prevenient grace &#8220;is performed by the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit, who was sent by the Father and the Son to &#8216;prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>The main problem with using this verse to show the Spirit&#8217;s work in prevenient grace is a question of timing. In the above quote, a rather important part of <cite class="bibleref" title="John 16:8" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_6367" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/John%2016.8/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p43016008.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num woc&quot; id=&quot;v43016008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;woc&quot;&gt;And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:&lt;/span&gt;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_6367', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">John 16:8</a> is left out: &#8220;&#8230;when he comes, he will&#8230;&#8221; Jesus was telling the believers about an event yet to take place. The Spirit had not yet come, his special convincing work had not yet begun.</p>
<p>Human depravity did not begin after the time of Christ. Men were totally depraved from the time of Adam onward. Despite this depravity, we find people from the time of Adam onward, through Jesus, and on to our day, who have had faith in God and sought to walk in obedience. If <cite class="bibleref" title="John 16:8" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_7912" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/John%2016.8/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p43016008.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num woc&quot; id=&quot;v43016008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;woc&quot;&gt;And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:&lt;/span&gt;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_7912', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">John 16:8</a> demonstrates the Spirit&#8217;s work in prevenient grace, how did anyone follow God prior to the coming of the Spirit in <cite class="bibleref" title="Acts 2" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_9263" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Acts%202/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p44002001.07-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;chapter-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002001-1&quot;&gt;2:1&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002002-1&quot;&gt;2&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002003-1&quot;&gt;3&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002004-1&quot;&gt;4&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002005.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002005-1&quot;&gt;5&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002006-1&quot;&gt;6&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002007-1&quot;&gt;7&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they were amazed and astonished, saying, &amp;#8220;Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002009-1&quot;&gt;9&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002010-1&quot;&gt;10&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002011-1&quot;&gt;11&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians&amp;#8212;we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002012-1&quot;&gt;12&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, &amp;#8220;What does this mean?&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002013-1&quot;&gt;13&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But others mocking said, &amp;#8220;They are filled with new wine.&amp;#8221;&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002014.05-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002014-1&quot;&gt;14&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: &amp;#8220;Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002015-1&quot;&gt;15&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002016-1&quot;&gt;16&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:&lt;/p&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p44002017.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002017-1&quot;&gt;17&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;&amp;#8216;And in the last days it shall be, God declares,&lt;br /&gt;that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,&lt;br /&gt;and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and your young men shall see visions,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and your old men shall dream dreams;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002018-1&quot;&gt;18&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;even on my male servants and female servants&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002019-1&quot;&gt;19&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And I will show wonders in the heavens above&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and signs on the earth below,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002020-1&quot;&gt;20&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;the sun shall be turned to darkness&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and the moon to blood,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002021-1&quot;&gt;21&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.&amp;#8217;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002022.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002022-1&quot;&gt;22&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know&amp;#8212; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002023-1&quot;&gt;23&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002024-1&quot;&gt;24&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002025-1&quot;&gt;25&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For David says concerning him,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p44002025.06-1&quot;&gt;&amp;#8220;&amp;#8216;I saw the Lord always before me,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002026-1&quot;&gt;26&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;my flesh also will dwell in hope.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002027-1&quot;&gt;27&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;or let your Holy One see corruption.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002028-1&quot;&gt;28&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;You have made known to me the paths of life;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;you will make me full of gladness with your presence.&amp;#8217;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002029.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002029-1&quot;&gt;29&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002030-1&quot;&gt;30&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002031-1&quot;&gt;31&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002032-1&quot;&gt;32&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002033-1&quot;&gt;33&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002034-1&quot;&gt;34&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p44002034.13-1&quot;&gt;&amp;#8220;&amp;#8216;The Lord said to my Lord,&lt;br /&gt;Sit at my right hand,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002035-1&quot;&gt;35&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;until I make your enemies your footstool.&amp;#8217;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;p class=&quot;same-paragraph&quot; id=&quot;p44002036.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002036-1&quot;&gt;36&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.&amp;#8221;&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002037.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002037-1&quot;&gt;37&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, &amp;#8220;Brothers, what shall we do?&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002038-1&quot;&gt;38&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And Peter said to them, &amp;#8220;Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002039-1&quot;&gt;39&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002040-1&quot;&gt;40&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, &amp;#8220;Save yourselves from this crooked generation.&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002041-1&quot;&gt;41&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002042.06-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002042-1&quot;&gt;42&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they devoted themselves to the apostles&amp;#8217; teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002043-1&quot;&gt;43&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002044-1&quot;&gt;44&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And all who believed were together and had all things in common. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002045-1&quot;&gt;45&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002046-1&quot;&gt;46&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002047-1&quot;&gt;47&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_9263', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Acts 2</a>?</p>
<p>The Old Testament does not tell us what God did to change the hearts of the saints, but this is not altogether unusual. Many details are missing from the Old Testament which are later given in the New. One demonstration is with the Old Testament practice of sacrifice. The OT faithful were not told that the sacrificial system was not salvific in itself, that it pointed instead to a coming Messiah. <cite class="bibleref" title="Hebrews 8:5" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_9113" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Hebrews%208.5/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p58008005.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v58008005-1&quot;&gt;5&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, &amp;#8220;See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.&amp;#8221;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_9113', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Hebrews 8:5</a> says these practices were a &#8220;copy and shadow of the heavenly things.&#8221; Later in the Old Testament we receive a clearer revelation about the coming Messiah, but even with the prophecies of <cite class="bibleref" title="Isaiah 53" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_1033" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Isaiah%2053/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p23053001.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;chapter-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053001-1&quot;&gt;53:1&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Who has believed what he has heard from us?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;And to whom has the arm of the &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; been revealed?&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053002-1&quot;&gt;2&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For he grew up before him like a young plant,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and like a root out of dry ground;&lt;br /&gt;he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and no beauty that we should desire him.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053003-1&quot;&gt;3&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;He was despised and rejected by men;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;&lt;br /&gt;and as one from whom men hide their faces&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;he was despised, and we esteemed him not.&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p23053004.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053004-1&quot;&gt;4&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Surely he has borne our griefs&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and carried our sorrows;&lt;br /&gt;yet we esteemed him stricken,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;smitten by God, and afflicted.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053005-1&quot;&gt;5&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But he was wounded for our transgressions;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;he was crushed for our iniquities;&lt;br /&gt;upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and with his stripes we are healed.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053006-1&quot;&gt;6&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;All we like sheep have gone astray;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;we have turned&amp;#8212;every one&amp;#8212;to his own way;&lt;br /&gt;and the &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; has laid on him&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;the iniquity of us all.&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p23053007.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053007-1&quot;&gt;7&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;yet he opened not his mouth;&lt;br /&gt;like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;so he opened not his mouth.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;By oppression and judgment he was taken away;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and as for his generation, who considered&lt;br /&gt;that he was cut off out of the land of the living,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;stricken for the transgression of my people?&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053009-1&quot;&gt;9&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they made his grave with the wicked&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and with a rich man in his death,&lt;br /&gt;although he had done no violence,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and there was no deceit in his mouth.&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p23053010.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053010-1&quot;&gt;10&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Yet it was the will of the &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; to crush him;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;he has put him to grief;&lt;br /&gt;when his soul makes an offering for guilt,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;&lt;br /&gt;the will of the &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; shall prosper in his hand.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053011-1&quot;&gt;11&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;&lt;br /&gt;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;make many to be accounted righteous,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and he shall bear their iniquities.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23053012-1&quot;&gt;12&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,&lt;br /&gt;because he poured out his soul to death&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and was numbered with the transgressors;&lt;br /&gt;yet he bore the sin of many,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and makes intercession for the transgressors.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_1033', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Isaiah 53</a> and some other passages, there is still a mystery which is only revealed after the revelation of Christ.</p>
<p>The problem with prevenient grace is not that it cannot be found in the Old Testament, but that it also cannot be found in the New Testament, and the only verse used as an example of the Spirit&#8217;s work in prevenient grace points clearly to the work the Spirit does only after Jesus has returned to Heaven. It does not and cannot be used to explain something that happens prior to the Spirit&#8217;s coming in <cite class="bibleref" title="Acts 2" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_9126" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Acts%202/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p44002001.07-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;chapter-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002001-1&quot;&gt;2:1&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002002-1&quot;&gt;2&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002003-1&quot;&gt;3&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002004-1&quot;&gt;4&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002005.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002005-1&quot;&gt;5&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002006-1&quot;&gt;6&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002007-1&quot;&gt;7&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they were amazed and astonished, saying, &amp;#8220;Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002009-1&quot;&gt;9&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002010-1&quot;&gt;10&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002011-1&quot;&gt;11&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians&amp;#8212;we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002012-1&quot;&gt;12&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, &amp;#8220;What does this mean?&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002013-1&quot;&gt;13&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But others mocking said, &amp;#8220;They are filled with new wine.&amp;#8221;&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002014.05-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002014-1&quot;&gt;14&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: &amp;#8220;Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002015-1&quot;&gt;15&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002016-1&quot;&gt;16&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:&lt;/p&gt; &lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p44002017.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002017-1&quot;&gt;17&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;&amp;#8216;And in the last days it shall be, God declares,&lt;br /&gt;that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,&lt;br /&gt;and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and your young men shall see visions,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and your old men shall dream dreams;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002018-1&quot;&gt;18&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;even on my male servants and female servants&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002019-1&quot;&gt;19&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And I will show wonders in the heavens above&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and signs on the earth below,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002020-1&quot;&gt;20&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;the sun shall be turned to darkness&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and the moon to blood,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002021-1&quot;&gt;21&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.&amp;#8217;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002022.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002022-1&quot;&gt;22&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know&amp;#8212; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002023-1&quot;&gt;23&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002024-1&quot;&gt;24&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002025-1&quot;&gt;25&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For David says concerning him,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p44002025.06-1&quot;&gt;&amp;#8220;&amp;#8216;I saw the Lord always before me,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002026-1&quot;&gt;26&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;my flesh also will dwell in hope.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002027-1&quot;&gt;27&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;or let your Holy One see corruption.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002028-1&quot;&gt;28&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;You have made known to me the paths of life;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;you will make me full of gladness with your presence.&amp;#8217;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002029.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002029-1&quot;&gt;29&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002030-1&quot;&gt;30&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002031-1&quot;&gt;31&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002032-1&quot;&gt;32&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002033-1&quot;&gt;33&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002034-1&quot;&gt;34&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p44002034.13-1&quot;&gt;&amp;#8220;&amp;#8216;The Lord said to my Lord,&lt;br /&gt;Sit at my right hand,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002035-1&quot;&gt;35&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;until I make your enemies your footstool.&amp;#8217;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;p class=&quot;same-paragraph&quot; id=&quot;p44002036.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002036-1&quot;&gt;36&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.&amp;#8221;&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002037.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002037-1&quot;&gt;37&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, &amp;#8220;Brothers, what shall we do?&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002038-1&quot;&gt;38&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And Peter said to them, &amp;#8220;Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002039-1&quot;&gt;39&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002040-1&quot;&gt;40&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, &amp;#8220;Save yourselves from this crooked generation.&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002041-1&quot;&gt;41&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.&lt;/p&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p44002042.06-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002042-1&quot;&gt;42&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they devoted themselves to the apostles&amp;#8217; teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002043-1&quot;&gt;43&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002044-1&quot;&gt;44&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And all who believed were together and had all things in common. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002045-1&quot;&gt;45&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002046-1&quot;&gt;46&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v44002047-1&quot;&gt;47&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_9126', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Acts 2</a>.</p>
<p>I continue to wait for a clear demonstration of prevenient grace from the pages of Scripture.</p>
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			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/09/10/total-depravity-prevenient-grace-and-john-168/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
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		<title>Lemke on R. C. Sproul on Infant Salvation</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/08/25/lemke-on-r-c-sproul-on-infant-salvation/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/08/25/lemke-on-r-c-sproul-on-infant-salvation/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[age of accountability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[infant salvation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1321</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In a recent post at SBC Today, Steve Lemke has once again repeated the claim that R. C. Sproul rejects the possibility of infant salvation or an age of accountability. (I have previously responded to Lemke on the age of accountability) Here is what Lemke says about Sproul: Some contemporary Presbyterians such as R. C. Sproul, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/08/25/distinctive-baptist-beliefsnine-marks-that-separate-baptists-from-presbyteriansdistinctive-baptist-belief-2—the-age-or-state-of-accountability/">recent post</a> at SBC Today, Steve Lemke has once again repeated the claim that R. C. Sproul rejects the possibility of infant salvation or an age of accountability. (I have <a href="http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/07/27/a-response-to-steve-lemke-on-age-of-accountability/">previously responded</a> to Lemke on the age of accountability) Here is what Lemke says about Sproul:</p>
<blockquote><p>Some contemporary Presbyterians such as R. C. Sproul, Jr. reject the notion that children below the age of accountability who die go to heaven.</p></blockquote>
<p>The major problem with this claim is that Sproul didn’t say that, or anything like it, and yet people keep referencing Sproul’s article as proof that he rejects the possibility of infant salvation. But <a href="http://highlandsministriesonline.com/articles/comfortYeMyPeople.php">here is what Sproul actually said</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Compassion tells us not to sugarcoat, but not to supply a poison pill either. We cannot say for sure what happens to small children who die.</p></blockquote>
<p>In other words, Sproul says that the Bible does not say enough to allow us to be dogmatic, it is an area of mystery. Sproul did not say he believes infants go to Hell. Nor did he say he believes infants go to Heaven. He says Scripture offers a few hints, but leaves the rest unspoken.</p>
<p>His criticism of Graham is warranted. Graham offered dogmatic assurances in an area that the Bible is largely silent. Views about original sin are almost irrelevant: the Bible does not make a case for an age of accountability nor does it guarantee the salvation of people under a certain age or mental condition.</p>
<p>Just a few days ago I <a href="http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/audio/ask-rc-4/">listened to Sproul</a> (from a July recording) address the question of infant salvation:</p>
<p>It’s the first question, so listen through the opening ad and you’ll reach it. Sproul says:</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t know any way to give an answer to this definitively. There are passages that could give a hint at an answer… but [they do not] specifically answer the question, so… I really don’t know… I leave this question up to the grace of God.</p></blockquote>
<p>That matches perfectly with what he said in response to Graham. It does not match Lemke’s assertion. Sproul does not reject the possibility of infant salvation.</p>
<p>My take is similar to Sproul&#8217;s. The Bible simply does not say enough to be dogmatic. There are tantalizing hints (and I think Sproul missed the best one, <cite class="bibleref" title="Deuteronomy 1:39" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_8972" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Deuteronomy%201.39/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p05001039.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v05001039-1&quot;&gt;39&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_8972', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Deuteronomy 1:39</a>), but those hints are only hints. Ultimately, we must leave the matter in God&#8217;s hands and trust that his way is best.</p>
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		<title>Shai Linne on Limited Atonement and Election</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/08/19/shai-linne-on-limited-atonement-and-election/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/08/19/shai-linne-on-limited-atonement-and-election/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[limited atonement]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A unique way of explaining limited atonement. Perhaps I should do my next post in this format?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A unique way of explaining limited atonement. Perhaps I should do my next post in this format?</p>
<p><iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hZ_jFO2VzRQ" frameborder="0" width="560" height="345"></iframe></p>
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		<title>Free will: Fair Offer</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/07/02/free-will-fair-offer/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/07/02/free-will-fair-offer/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jul 2011 12:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fair offer]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[free will]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1206</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a discussion at SBC Today. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion. Repeatedly in Scripture we find instances of God commanding people to seek him and do good. Would God really command us to do something if [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/06/30/theological-vocabulary-thursdayfree-will-two-versions-in-southern-baptist-life/">discussion at SBC Today</a>. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion.</p>
<p>Repeatedly in Scripture we find instances of God commanding people to seek him and do good. Would God really command us to do something if we were not able to obey? Also, in <cite class="bibleref" title="Matthew 23:37" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_9819" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Matthew%2023.37/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p40023037.04-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num woc&quot; id=&quot;v40023037-1&quot;&gt;37&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;woc&quot;&gt;&amp;#8220;O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!&lt;/span&gt;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_9819', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Matthew 23:37</a>, Jesus laments the disobedience of Jerusalem, saying to them, “<em>O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!</em>” Would he grieve like that over their choice if he knew they could not choose an alternative?</p>
<p>I often wonder why non-Calvinists think <cite class="bibleref" title="Matthew 23:37" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_4705" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Matthew%2023.37/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p40023037.04-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num woc&quot; id=&quot;v40023037-1&quot;&gt;37&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;woc&quot;&gt;&amp;#8220;O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!&lt;/span&gt;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_4705', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Matthew 23:37</a> is a challenge to Calvinists. My response to this is the same as it is to any other place where God calls for human response, or where God is grieved over human choices. God hates sin. God is grieved by sin. There is no doubt about that. Also, God calls for people to choose him, to pursue him, to seek him, to follow him, to obey him. God is grieved when people reject his universal call. But God’s call does not imply man’s ability to respond &#8211; or to desire obedience. In <cite class="bibleref" title="Matthew 6:33" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_7098" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Matthew%206.33/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p40006033.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num woc&quot; id=&quot;v40006033-1&quot;&gt;33&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;woc&quot;&gt;But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.&lt;/span&gt;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_7098', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Matthew 6:33</a> Jesus says to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, but then in <cite class="bibleref" title="Romans 3:11" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_9874" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Romans%203.11/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p45003011.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003011-1&quot;&gt;11&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;no one understands;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;no one seeks for God.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_9874', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Romans 3:11</a> we are told no one seeks God. The instruction, the call is there, but the obedience is not.</p>
<p>Some say (and this was a big point in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805464166/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&#038;tag=seethehol-20&#038;linkCode=as2&#038;camp=217145&#038;creative=399369&#038;creativeASIN=0805464166">Whosoever Will</a>) that God does not make a fair offer if he instructs mankind to do something he knows we are unable to do. But we see this exact thing spelled out for us when it comes to the law. What does Paul say about the law in <cite class="bibleref" title="Romans 7:7-12" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_6975" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Romans%207.7-12/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p45007007.05-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45007007-1&quot;&gt;7&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, &amp;#8220;You shall not covet.&amp;#8221; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45007008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45007009-1&quot;&gt;9&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45007010-1&quot;&gt;10&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45007011-1&quot;&gt;11&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45007012-1&quot;&gt;12&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_6975', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Romans 7:7-12</a>? We know it is impossible to be righteous through the law, because the law is not given to make men righteous but to reveal man’s sin. But what is the law except a description of God’s will for his people? In the law, we receive the commands of God and we would assume that God expects us to walk by them and live according to them and be perfect in our obedience. But Paul says that such obedience is impossible. Is the law then unfair? Is it an unjust offer? Is the law sin, when our obedience is not only impossible, but the law itself is given to rouse and reveal our sin? Absolutely not! Paul says (7:12), on the contrary, that the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.</p>
<p>So when Jesus laments the disobedience of Jerusalem, he is grieved by the sin and disobedience of a fallen people who, apart from the regenerating grace of the Spirit, will ever only reject the Son of God.</p>
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		<title>Free will: Good, Better, Best?</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/07/01/free-will-good-evil/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/07/01/free-will-good-evil/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2011 22:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evil]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[free will]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[good]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a discussion at SBC Today. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion. When Calvinists say no one can do good, isn’t that an exaggeration? Isn’t “good” just a value statement so we can speak of people doing [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/06/30/theological-vocabulary-thursdayfree-will-two-versions-in-southern-baptist-life/">discussion at SBC Today</a>. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion.</p>
<p>When Calvinists say no one can do good, isn’t that an exaggeration? Isn’t “good” just a value statement so we can speak of people doing “good”, “better”, “best”, etc?</p>
<p>That is not the way I mean the word good. It is bad of my neighbor to knock over my trash can. It is good of my neighbor to leave my trash can alone. It is better of my neighbor to move my trash can to the road for me if he sees I forgot to put it out. Those are value conditions, but that is not what we speak of if we are talking about moral goodness. Then there are only two categories: good or evil. A person does good, or they do evil. They commit acts of sin or acts of righteousness. There is no middle ground. </p>
<p>When a lost person pursues actions that promote the good of society, we can commend them and praise God for his common grace to mankind, but that does not make their actions pleasing in the sight of the Lord. For then again <cite class="bibleref" title="Isaiah 64:6" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_9981" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Isaiah%2064.6/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p23064006.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v23064006-1&quot;&gt;6&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;We have all become like one who is unclean,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.&lt;br /&gt;We all fade like a leaf,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_9981', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Isaiah 64:6</a> comes into play &#8211; however righteous their deeds may appear to us, to him they are as filthy rags. Or again <cite class="bibleref" title="Romans 14:23" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_4549" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Romans%2014.23/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p45014023.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45014023-1&quot;&gt;23&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_4549', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Romans 14:23</a>, if it is not of faith, then it is sin. If they are not seeking God’s glory, if they are not serving God, if they are not motivated by a heart for God, then their actions &#8211; however glad we may be that they do those things &#8211; are still sin in the sight of God. If we are not doing what we do out of service to Christ, then what we do is sin. There is no middle ground.</p>
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		<title>Free will: The stages of human will</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/07/01/free-will-stages/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/07/01/free-will-stages/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2011 12:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[free will]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[stages]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a discussion at SBC Today. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion. I believe there have been/are four stages to human will and corruption: Original innocence in which Adam and Eve had uncorrupt free will, the freedom [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/06/30/theological-vocabulary-thursdayfree-will-two-versions-in-southern-baptist-life/">discussion at SBC Today</a>. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion.</p>
<p>I believe there have been/are four stages to human will and corruption:</p>
<ol>
<li>Original innocence in which Adam and Eve had uncorrupt free will, the freedom to <em>do</em> good or evil and the ability to <em>desire</em> good or evil.</li>
<li>Mankind after the fall, when the will has been corrupted so that while mankind still has the freedom to do good, we no longer ever have the desire to do good.</li>
<li>Mankind in Christ in which we have the freedom to both do good and desire good, but with additional factors: the flesh to draw us toward sin and the Spirit to grow us in righteousness.</li>
<li>Glorified humanity, when we will have the freedom to do good or evil but will only ever desire good. We will continue sinless, perfect, without the flesh, without the stain of sin.</li>
</ol>
<p>I don’t see in Scripture anything proposing a kind of mediate state between #2 and #3 in which we are elevated out of deadness but not fully raised to life.</p>
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		<title>Free will: The origin of a depraved will</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/06/30/free-will-origins/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/06/30/free-will-origins/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2011 03:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[free will]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a discussion at SBC Today. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion. Calvinists believe that the will of man is so corrupt, no one will ever choose God, no one will ever seek God, no one will [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post belongs to a brief series sparked by a <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/06/30/theological-vocabulary-thursdayfree-will-two-versions-in-southern-baptist-life/">discussion at SBC Today</a>. The posts in this series are modified snippets of some comments I made in that discussion.</p>
<p>Calvinists believe that the will of man is so corrupt, no one will ever choose God, no one will ever seek God, no one will ever desire God, unless God first does a work of grace in the life of the individual, removing his dead heart and corrupt will and giving him a new heart and faith. But what caused people to have dead hearts? Does God himself impose limits on our freedom, or have we done something that has caused our lack of ability to respond to God?</p>
<p>Furthermore, if we are unable to respond to God, does a real option even exist? Can we speak of people having the option to receive Christ if they do not have the ability to receive Christ?</p>
<p>Because of our depraved will, we would never respond to the offer of the gospel. But that does not mean the option does not exist. Our ability to respond to the offer is removed due to something we have done to ourselves. I once saw a picture of a little girl from Nigeria who as a toddler was caught in ethnic conflict and had both of her arms cut off. I thought how heartbreaking for someone so young, someone who had nothing to do with the conflict, someone with no ability to defend herself, but be injured so terribly. There are many real options now eliminated because of the loss of her arms. Some try to present the Calvinistic view of the will as though humanity were like that little girl, hindered through no fault of our own. But we are more like the guy who ignores the warning labels on his power tools and cuts off his own arms. Tragic, absolutely, but also his responsibility. We, in Adam, made the free will choice to ignore the warnings and play with the power tools and the consequences are lasting.</p>
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		<title>Free Will and the Fall</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/06/30/free-will-and-the-fall/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2011/06/30/free-will-and-the-fall/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Calvinism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fall]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[free will]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[libertarian]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This began life as a comment on SBC Today. Thought I&#8217;d modify and repost it here. What is the nature of human free will? Are we completely free to choose to do anything we want to do? If so, who grants us that freedom? If we say we are not free, who restricts that freedom? [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This began life as a <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/06/30/theological-vocabulary-thursdayfree-will-two-versions-in-southern-baptist-life/#comment-15313">comment</a> on <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/06/30/theological-vocabulary-thursdayfree-will-two-versions-in-southern-baptist-life/">SBC Today</a>. Thought I&#8217;d modify and repost it here.</p>
<p>What is the nature of human free will? Are we completely free to choose to do anything we want to do? If so, who grants us that freedom? If we say we are not free, who restricts that freedom? At <a href="http://sbctoday.com/2011/06/30/theological-vocabulary-thursdayfree-will-two-versions-in-southern-baptist-life/">SBC Today</a>, L. Manning Garrett contrasts his understanding of two views of free will found within the SBC. I believe his contrast is not altogether accurate, so below I clarify my view with some arguments about the nature of human freedom after the fall of man into sin. </p>
<p>“Most Calvinists who hold to compatibilistic free will maintain that determinism eliminates real options but determinism does coexist with a free will.”</p>
<p>It is not determinism that limits real options, it is sin that limits real options. Sin keeps sinners from desiring a savior. Mankind has the freedom to accept or reject Christ. All are free to make that choice. But because of sin, none will accept him unless God first does a work of grace, turning a dead heart into a heart of faith. </p>
<p>Every human being on the planet has the real option of choosing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. But left to themselves, no human being on the planet would ever choose Christ because every human being is a sinner with hearts and minds and wills corrupted by sin, void of faith, and desiring only fallen things.</p>
<p>Obviously, God’s choice then becomes crucial for if God does not choose to impose his will on human fallen will, then no one would be saved. </p>
<p>Garrett&#8217;s article goes on to describe the Calvinist view as essentially defined by determinism &#8211; that Calvinists believe in “the determining force of a totally depraved will”. The problem with this explanation is it implies that the determining force something external, as though sin were something beyond me now acting on me. But this does not hold.</p>
<p><strong>First</strong>, with Adam as federal head, what happened in Adam happens in us. His fall was not something external to us, it is something very much part of what we as humans have done &#8211; in Adam &#8211; to ourselves. Thus the effects of original sin are not imposed upon us from some external force absolutely beyond are control but were imposed upon ourselves through Adam. </p>
<p><strong>Second</strong>, beyond Adam, we have our own sinfulness. Even if we were not corrupt in Adam, we have nonetheless done a good job of corrupting ourselves. Whether the source of our corruption is in Adam or in our own committed sins, we are corrupt, depraved, fallen, sinful, wicked, desiring evil, turning from good, acting from selfishness rather than faith, etc etc. </p>
<p><strong>Third</strong>, Scripture itself tells us, several times, that our every desire is sinful, our every thought wicked, our every action rebellion. As has been noted again and again, <cite class="bibleref" title="Romans 3:9-20" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_285" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Romans%203.9-20/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p45003009.05-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003009-1&quot;&gt;9&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003010-1&quot;&gt;10&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;as it is written:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p45003010.05-1&quot;&gt;&amp;#8220;None is righteous, no, not one;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003011-1&quot;&gt;11&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;no one understands;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;no one seeks for God.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003012-1&quot;&gt;12&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;no one does good,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;not even one.&amp;#8221;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003013-1&quot;&gt;13&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;Their throat is an open grave;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;they use their tongues to deceive.&amp;#8221;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;#8220;The venom of asps is under their lips.&amp;#8221;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003014-1&quot;&gt;14&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.&amp;#8221;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003015-1&quot;&gt;15&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;Their feet are swift to shed blood;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003016-1&quot;&gt;16&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;in their paths are ruin and misery,&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003017-1&quot;&gt;17&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;and the way of peace they have not known.&amp;#8221;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003018-1&quot;&gt;18&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;&amp;#8220;There is no fear of God before their eyes.&amp;#8221;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt; &lt;p id=&quot;p45003019.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003019-1&quot;&gt;19&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003020-1&quot;&gt;20&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_285', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Romans 3:9-20</a> should settle this issue. No one seeks for God. No one will call out to him. No one does good. Any argument from libertarian freedom will have to explain how we get from <cite class="bibleref" title="Romans 3:11" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_9366" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Romans%203.11/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p45003011.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003011-1&quot;&gt;11&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;no one understands;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;no one seeks for God.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_9366', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Romans 3:11</a> to saying anyone can seek God if he so chooses.</p>
<p><strong>Fourth</strong>, we have brought this condition on ourselves, through Adam’s sin and through our own. Because of our condition, our every desire is sin and the words of <cite class="bibleref" title="Genesis 6:5" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_2998" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Genesis%206.5/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p01006005.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v01006005-1&quot;&gt;5&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;The &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_2998', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Genesis 6:5</a> &#8211; pre-flood words repeated after the flood in <cite class="bibleref" title="Genesis 8:21" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_1866" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Genesis%208.21/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p01008021.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v01008021-1&quot;&gt;21&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And when the &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; smelled the pleasing aroma, the &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; said in his heart, &amp;#8220;I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man&amp;#8217;s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_1866', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Genesis 8:21</a> as a universal indictment &#8211; continue to be true of us today: every intention of the heart is only evil continually. A heart which only ever has intentions of evil will never choose good (which we saw in <cite class="bibleref" title="Romans 3:12" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_5734" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Romans%203.12/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p45003012.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45003012-1&quot;&gt;12&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;no one does good,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;not even one.&amp;#8221;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_5734', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Romans 3:12</a>). We are free to choose good in that God does not prevent anyone from doing good, but we hinder ourselves by the wickedness of our hearts. The only remedy is a work of God’s grace, a work that we see him carry out in individuals but not for humanity as a whole. Thus our only hope to ever be able to make a free will choice for God is if God first changes our wills, removing hearts of stone and giving us hearts that beat for him.</p>
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		<title>Regeneration and Faith</title>
		<link>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/09/29/regeneration-and-faith/</link>
		<comments>http://www.seektheholy.com/2010/09/29/regeneration-and-faith/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Chris Roberts</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[regeneration]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[salvation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.seektheholy.com/?p=1104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One of the claims of Calvinism is that regeneration must precede faith. That is, no one can trust in Christ, no one will desire salvation and forgiveness, until God first removes the dead heart of stone and puts in a heart desiring God. Left to ourselves, we will always, always reject God. Only when God [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the claims of Calvinism is that regeneration must precede faith. That is, no one can trust in Christ, no one will desire salvation and forgiveness, until God first removes the dead heart of stone and puts in a heart desiring God. Left to ourselves, we will always, always reject God. Only when God breathes life into us by the Spirit will we turn to him.</p>
<p>One image of this is found in <cite class="bibleref" title="Zechariah 13:8-9" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_4848" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Zechariah%2013.8-9/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;div class=&quot;block-indent&quot;&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;line-group&quot; id=&quot;p38013008.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v38013008-1&quot;&gt;8&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;In the whole land, declares the &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt;,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;two thirds shall be cut off and perish,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and one third shall be left alive.&lt;br /&gt; &lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v38013009-1&quot;&gt;9&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;And I will put this third into the fire,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and refine them as one refines silver,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and test them as gold is tested.&lt;br /&gt;They will call upon my name,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and I will answer them.&lt;br /&gt;I will say, &amp;#8216;They are my people&amp;#8217;;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;indent&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;and they will say, &amp;#8216;The &lt;span class=&quot;small-caps&quot;&gt;Lord&lt;/span&gt; is my God.&amp;#8217;&amp;#8221;  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_4848', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Zechariah 13:8-9</a>:</p>
<div class='esvblock'>
<div class="esv"><span style='font-size: larger; font-weight: bold;'><a class="bibleref" title="Zechariah 13:8-9" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Zechariah%2013.8-9/" target="_blank">Zechariah 13:8-9</a></span><span class='esv_inline_header'></span></p>
<div class="esv-text">
<div class="block-indent">
<p class="line-group" id="p38013008.01-1"><span class="verse-num" id="v38013008-1">8&nbsp;</span>In the whole land, declares the <span class="small-caps">Lord</span>,<br />
<span class="indent"></span>two thirds shall be cut off and perish,<br />
<span class="indent"></span>and one third shall be left alive.<br />
 <span class="verse-num" id="v38013009-1">9&nbsp;</span>And I will put this third into the fire,<br />
<span class="indent"></span>and refine them as one refines silver,<br />
<span class="indent"></span>and test them as gold is tested.<br />
They will call upon my name,<br />
<span class="indent"></span>and I will answer them.<br />
I will say, &#8216;They are my people&#8217;;<br />
<span class="indent"></span>and they will say, &#8216;The <span class="small-caps">Lord</span> is my God.&#8217;&#8221;  (<a href="http://www.esv.org" class="copyright">ESV</a>)</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p>It starts with God speaking of a division among the people. Two-thirds are set aside for destruction while one-third will be saved from the coming invaders. This one-third, this remnant of the people, is not set aside because of their own merit but because of the mercy of God. In <cite class="bibleref" title="Romans 11:5" style="display: none;"></cite><a id="tippy_tip1328611107_1843" href="http://www.esvbible.org/search/Romans%2011.5/" target="_blank" class="tippy_link" onmouseover="Tippy.loadTipInfo('&lt;p id=&quot;p45011005.01-1&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;verse-num&quot; id=&quot;v45011005-1&quot;&gt;5&amp;nbsp;&lt;/span&gt;So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.  (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esv.org&quot; class=&quot;copyright&quot;&gt;ESV&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;', 0, 0, 'tippy_tip1328611107_1843', event);" onmouseout="Tippy.fadeTippyOut();">Romans 11:5</a> Paul compares us with the faithful few of Elijah&#8217;s day and describes us as <i>a remnant chosen by grace</i>. </p>
<p>So God designates a remnant of the people. And what does he do with this remnant? He refines them, he tries them, he purifies them in the fire that burns away every impurity. He takes that which is impure and makes it pure. Only after he has done this work will the people call on his name. They must call on him, they must pursue him by faith, but because of his work, they <i>will</i> call on him. And when they call on him, he will declare them to be his people.</p>
<p>Thanks be to God for his mercy to us, to take that which was foul with sin and completely in rebellion against God, to cleanse us, to purify us, to give us hearts of love for him, and to make us his children. Some people say this theology is heresy. I call it grace, mercy, and life.</p>
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